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Tonight
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the time before time begins
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The universe, Black Holes
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God and the laws of Science
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Profº Stephen Hawking
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Doctor Carl Sagan
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and Arthur C. Clarke
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discuss the mysteries men faces as he starts to explore the stars
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Subtitles by JUZAO in july 2008, from the original audio
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Don't think you are smatter than everyone, if this show is available for shop in your country BUY IT!
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Support scientists who can actually make a difference in our lives
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Degenerative disabilities prevents Stephen Hawking from speaking a word
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But he reason above them to become a brilliant mathematician and teacher
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using a computer driven voice synthesizer
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He's told the world how the universe began
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and now he is seeking the ultimate theory of how it works
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Arthur C. Clarke invented the communication satellite long before the technology exist to launch one
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That vision of the future father the global village
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his novels and stories including 2001 Space Odyssey
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have inspired generations of real life astronauts
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Carl Sagan sent man's first messages to the stars aboard Nasa's space probes
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his sure will not be alone in the cosmic widerness
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Doctor Sagan join our discussion from Cornell University in NY State
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So I check whether he could hear us over one of Arthur satellites
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Yes. Communication satellite technology is working very well, Thank You
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Arthur can you hear all right?
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I can hear fine
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And professor Hawking are you in touch with Carl Sagan?
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Yes
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Profº Hawking in fact has just made publishing history
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by writing a book about hard theorical science which has outsold
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even Michael Jackson in the bestsellers lists
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It is called a Brief History of Time
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and we will be talking about the concepts that are in it
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Now Stephen Hawking has engaged in a search for the ultimate answer
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a grand, unified theory that will explain everything
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Stephen Hawking that is quite an agenda. How are getting on with it?
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Let me just explain that what happens when Profº Hawking wishes to speak
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He lost his voice a couple of years ago. And now has to use a voice synthesizer
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And he can control a squeeze box in his hand
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And on the video screen on his chair he's got a vocabulary
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which scrolls trough and he can pick out a word that he wants
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and these words are then assembled into a sentence
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and when the sentences are ready he can passes it trough the voice synthesizer
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so whenever you are ready profº Hawking we would like to hear from you
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In the last 300 years we have discovered the laws and covered the universe
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in all by the most extreme conditions
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I think there is a reasonable chance that we may find the complete set of laws
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by the end of the century if we don't blow ourselves at first
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If we do find a complete unified theory will be a great triumph not only for scientist
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but for ordinary people as well
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In time, the unified theory will be simplified and taught in schools at least in outline
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Then everyone will have some idea of how the universe works
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Well that is a tremendous vision
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Now Carl Sagan you wrote an introduction to the book
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And of the striking things that you said is that
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Is only children now a days who ask the big questions
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because they don't know enough
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What I was trying to get across was the notion that the school system
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It seems to me that they have an attitude of discouragement
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Of asking fundamental questions
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If a 5-6 year old asks why the moon is round or why the grass is green
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The usual adult answer, at least in my experience, is to discourage the child
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Say "what shape did you expect the moon to be? A square ?"
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"What color did you expect the grass to be? Blue?"
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Instead of saying: Those are interesting questions let’s try to find out the answers
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Or "Maybe nobody knows the answer
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and when you grow up you will be able to discover the answer
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It will be very healthy for the human species
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if there were less discouragement and more scientists
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Arthur Clarke?
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I wonder about science which is because it does free the imagination
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and it does inspire people to become scientists
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and astronauts
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maybe for the very old man by coming up and say to me
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You know your book turn me into a small boy
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Excellent. Now I've planned a reasonably finite structure for our little colloquium
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And I’d like to start it, if I may, with Profº Hawking
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How did the universe start? With a Big bang?
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We observe that the distant galaxies are moving away from us
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This means that they must have blow themselves together in the past
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In fact, one can show that all the galaxies must have been on top of each other
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about 15 billion of years ago
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this was real big bang not the puny things that took place
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on the stock exchange a couple of years ago
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It was the beginning of the universe and of time itself
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Anything that happened before the big bang
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could not affect what happened after
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so we can neglect the events before the big bang
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and say that the time began at the big bang
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After the Big Bang we believe that the universe expanded in a very rapidly inflationary manner
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Again this inflation in the universe quite puts modern economic inflation in the shade
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An increase of billion of billions of percent in a tiny fraction of the second
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Of course, that was before the present government
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During the inflationary period the universe borrowed heavily formed from its gravitational energy
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To finance the creation of more matter
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The results was a triumph for the Reagan economics:
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A vigorous in the expanding universe filled with material objects
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The debt of gravitational energy will not have to be repaid until the end of the universe
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I'd like to stay with this basic proposition for time beginning: The big Bang Theory
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And then I come to you Carl Sagan could you help me
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by putting it into layman terms what was involved with this Big Bang?
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Well, ... we... here we are in a planet, which is about five thousand million of years old
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The sun around it goes is not much older
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It is part of a galaxy which is a perhaps 10-12 thousand of million years old
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Which is one of perhaps hundreds of thousands of millions of other galaxies
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And none of these planets, suns and galaxies was around at the time of Big Bang
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At the time of Big bang there was energy, elementary particles
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which slowly evolved into the kind of universe we know it today
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We are the product of the grand evolutionary sequence cosmic evolution
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about which we are only occasionally aware of one of the great accomplishments of Dr. Hawking
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Is to plug us better in to the knowledge of this long evolutionary sequence
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What I have in my mind is a picture that Carl Sagan had been lead me towards to
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Of the whole universe in quite amazingly small packages. Like putting the whole world into a matchbox
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Immensely dense Immensely tiny. In fact sometimes it is kind of disappearing into a little point
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Is this the earliest imaginable point that our minds are taking us to so far Carl Sagan?
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Well, we..as Dr. Hawking said: The Galaxies are expanding, running away from each other
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The further away they are from each other the faster they are running away
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If you run the cosmic movie back into time you will come to a moment, perhaps 15-10 thousands of millions of years ago
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In which all the matter in the universe was touching in, if you like, a point
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And the key, unanswered and perhaps unanswerable question is:
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Where did all that matter energy come from?
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What was before that?
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And if it was made from nothing: Who made it?
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And who made the maker?
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And of course an infinite regress behind that
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Is the universe still expanding fast? I mean, It is a lot of more room in space, as i think ?
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for the universe to carry on and getting bigger?
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As far as I know: Nothing in the way, and the expansion continues. The question is:
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Whether there is sufficient matter in the universe? Matter that we have not yet counted?
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That will slow the expansion down and stop it and have the expanding universe followed by a collapsing universe
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Or whether there is not enough matter to stop the expansion and so the expansion will continue forever
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This is an observational question which is still unresolved
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and the Hubble space telescope...Who knows? Might be launched next year if we are lucky
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Might answer this question...
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Profº Hawking uses a very striking proposition of the earth borrowing this energy from itself
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Now in striking banking terms,
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Let me do the overdrawn now in the end there is going to be a collapse a big Crunch
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So does Big Bang get followed inevitably by Big Crunch?
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No, not inevitably. It depends on how much matter there is on the universe
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Which is still an unsolved issue. I should say that the prevailing opinion is that
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the universe will continue expanding forever, but in my opinion is by no means a very secure conclusion
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Now let bring in the poet of my side here.
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Arthur Clarke, you know what T.S. ELLIOT says " This is the way the world ends, not with a Bang but a whimper"
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When you think of the end of the world, if you think of the end of the world
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Does it ends with a bang or a whimper?
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Coming along, we like to think it will end with a Bang
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Of course we will never know, this is a long road way in the future
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Some...billions.. tens of billions... possibly much far in the future
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As Carl said, we may have the answers to these questions in a very few years
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If the Hubble Space telescope gets successfully into orbit and focus to the boundaries of the universe
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If we are as living in a little suburb of the galaxy
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Can you force a time when we will need to get out of the suburb and colonize somewhere else?
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Because of the gradual curve towards the end?
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Well, I think the human race.. If it survives the next few years will go on to colonize
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First the solar system.. and then will send ships out to the stars
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And ultimately perhaps throughout the galaxies
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But if the expansion of the universe is fast enough, we will never be able to keep up with it
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Now, one of the fastidid aspect that is raised is the question of time itself in the book
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Now.. we all think.. we know what time is. It is a lentlessmarch forward
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But for the purposes of you arguments Stephen Hawking you use a mathematical concept you called "Imaginary Time"
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Which seems to be able to run backwards as well as forwards ?
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In our theories there are two types of time
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There is what is called real time.
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This is the kind of time that is measured by a clock
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The time that we feel passing, the time that we grow older
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Then there is imaginary time
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Of course imaginary time is an idea that science fiction writers, like Arthur, have used in their stories
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But imaginary time is also a well defined mathematical concept
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it can be thought as a direction of time
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that is at right angles to ordinary, real time, in certain sense.
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The universe has a beginning in real time at the Big Bang
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And it may well have an end, if it collapses to a Big Crunch
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But in imaginary time it has no beginning or end
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Rather, imaginary time is closed on itself like the surface of the earth
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The surface of the earth doesn't have any beginning or end
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I know because I’ve been around the world and I didn't fall off
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Individual Particles can travel trough imaginary time and gets back in a nearlier real time
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But I don't believe that people will ever be able to travel back in time like in the film "Back to the Future"
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I'm gonna come first, if I may, to you Carl Sagan, because this idea in Profº Hawking's book
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that there is 4 extra dimensionals model of the universe. With no boundaries... but finite.. just like the earth
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This to me is really stretching my own capacity for imagination to the upmost
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How do you turn it into words for me a layman?
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Well.. the first thing i would say is not to feel bad... if it's not immediately intuitively obvious
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Our ability to understand things instantly, so called "Common Sense"
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Derives for a some certain range of size, and speed, and duration
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That are appropriate for human existence
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We know about thing from the tenth of millimeter to a few kilometers
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From a fraction of a second to a lifetime... and so on..
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So when we are dealing with matters of quantum physics..
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we have particles of a size of ten to the minus of thirteenth centimeters
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Or in cosmology... we are talking about of ten billion light years or more
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It is very reasonable that our intuition is not adaqueted to the task
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One point I would like to make about this is that every human culture
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has a set of creation myths
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But they are in the realm of mythology or religion or folklore
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And of course they are all coherent and consistent
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The great thing that is happening in our time is that we are able to a
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method which can actually make some progress towards the real universe out there
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To find out something about our origins and this is the scientific method applied to the science of cosmology
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So I know that is not a direct answer to your question but I thought it was more important
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to address the issue of feeling unhappy because is wasn't immediately understandable
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Yes, I find that extremely soothing actually
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because it is the kind of unformidable task of grasping this
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that makes me want to retreat into trivial questions like
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Is this idea of predicting backwards is going to put astrologists out of business ?
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Nothing will put astrologist out of business !!
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Well.. that is certainly the attitude of touching the lightness of this tremendous issues that we are discussing
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Infinity, black Holes and Imaginary time
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And at this stage... let's relax a little bit and have a bit of fun with mathematics at the most abstruse
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I'm going to ask Arthur Clarke here to do something doodling with his computer
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And with a fascinating exercise with complex numbers, which is called the Mandelbrot set
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Now, this is name is in honor of a French scientist working for IBM
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It's a mathematical equation which leads us towards the infinite
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In fact, it makes the mathematics of the universe visual and incredibly beautiful
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This is what we would see if we had eyes to see it when order meets chaos
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This is what is going on in the universe everyday
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And ordered universe is breaking down and becoming more disordered
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This is the second law of therm dynamics in action. What Stephen Hawking calls Murphy's Law
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Now Dr. Clarke will be using your computer back home in Sri-Lanka to
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to explore the Mandelbrot set at incredible high magnifications..
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And Yes,... well this strange looking object is the Mandelbrot set
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which is actually extraordinary simply concept is to find behind the equation of just two terms
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Z2 + C, that is all that is to it, that is a simple equation. Z2 + C
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You feed a number into it, then carry on over and over again
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to crank the number back and round around. And plot the results on screen. I'm not going to detail
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But this is the first appearance of the set.
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And what it does is to divide all possible numbers into two categories
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It's a map or a boundarie or a fence, if you like, diving one plus other number for another
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And you can tell your computer to go into any spot here and say
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recompute that area to a higher degree of precision and then blow it up on the screen
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So you can use a computer as a microscope and you can continue that process forever
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Some of the images are incredibly beautiful, they are going to have a greater impact
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on artists of design in the next decade or so
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I found what look like black holes and I’d like to show to you
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What I’m going to do now is to send to it, is to zoom into it, equation of magnification
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Manifold, and if I press the right button, it should happen now
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The computer will now review this image, and I think you will agree
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when it comes up, it's a very impressive black hole
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And it will be more so and I start it.....into action
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Oh yes! It is magnificent, isn't it?
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Oh you hate you seen nothing yet
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I should explain that this magnification, remember the original picture, which we took that was the same area
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This time I’ve magnified it more than a thousand times
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So the picture it was first is now 500 feet across. Now let's see if this works
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Now isn't that lovely?
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So now there is matter streaming into this black hole
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Well, now... when I found this black hole I started to exploring the neighborhood
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And.. I very quickly found an HONOR
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That's Lovely
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Now, this is a second black hole, this look like the earlier one, but this is one a far greater magnification
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the original Mandelbrot set now i think is about 10 million miles wide
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This is enormiusly bigger
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The first one you saw had essentially the same kind of pattern.
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This is black hole nº 3.. and this one.. took me 22 hours of computing in the day before I left Sri-Lanka
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I let the computer running all night
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And I’m ought to put this one because on this scale at the original middle picture you saw
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This has the width of the orbit of Mars, so you understand that no human being has ever seen that
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With this pattern before. Simply because of probabilities
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And you can explore the Mandelbrot set by growing up missing pieces of it
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And you are pretty sure that no one has ever seen that.. I'm the first person to see it
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And which time you will be drawn toward
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You are sucked into it
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Mathematical infinity
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Into smaller.. Yes.. this is real mathematical infinity.. this goes on forever and ever
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Limited only by the capacity of the machine and the speed which it can do the calculations
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I'm doing calculations here.. you may not and see that ..
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this ENORMUS long number.. there are 22 digits of numbers or so..
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and the Machine is multiplying those to get a 100 times a second
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Now, the thing that fascinates me about this is that this is the infinity detailed
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You go on forever and ever.. I'd like to ask to Stephen this question
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Is the real universe also in infinity detailed ?
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I mean we know we have MOLECULS, atom, electrons, protons
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sub-atomic level to the quarks so far
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But does it continue forever and ever? Or is there a limit? Is there a base for the real universe ?
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Professor Hawking ?
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We will discover new structures when look at the universe in smaller and smaller scales
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But in the case of the universe there seems to be a limiting scale
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It is called the "Planck Length" and it is about a million billion billion times smaller than an inch
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This means that there is a limit to how complex the universe can be
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It also means that the universe could be described by a theory that is very simple
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at least on scales of the "Planck Length"
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I just hope that we are smart enough to find it
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Are we smart enough to find it, Arthur?
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Well,... I wonder.. because after all we are simple primitive organisms and the universe is very old
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And I yes don't know.. I'd like to think so.. but then there is a feeling..
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When we found it, then what? where do we go from here?
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I'd like to turn our attention back on to our profº Stephen Hawking
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Do you think that we could ever hope to use the old science fiction trick of
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Diving into a black hole and then traveling to another part of the cosmos?
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Some recent work indicates that particles that falls into a black hole
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Can come out again out from another black hole somewhere else in the universe
293
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At first sight that seems to the ideal method of space travel
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Just find a black hole and jump in it
295
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But there are Snags.
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First that doesn't seem to be anyway to choose where you will come out
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Worst than that your history and real time you will come to a sticky end
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As you are torn apart by the gravitational fields inside the black hole
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Your history and imaginary time will continue out of the other black hole
300
00:26:24,418 --> 00:26:29,416
But that might not be much consolation to someone being made into spaghetti
301
00:26:32,105 --> 00:26:36,762
That will be like traveling on some Air Lines I could name
302
00:26:38,660 --> 00:26:43,527
So how do you see the that role of science fiction
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00:26:43,764 --> 00:26:48,627
Is it purely escapism or do you see as having a very real purpose
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00:26:49,155 --> 00:26:53,609
In broughting our pattern of thinking, opening our minds to the kind of
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00:26:53,842 --> 00:26:56,551
vast concepts in which we are discussing today ?
306
00:26:56,919 --> 00:27:00,139
First of all, there is no real objection to escapism in the right places
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In fact, CS News once remarked me, the only people who don't really like, who object to escapism are jailers
308
00:27:08,682 --> 00:27:14,246
We all want to escape occasionally but Science Fiction is often very far from escapism
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00:27:14,766 --> 00:27:18,996
In fact, you might say the Science fiction is escapism as escape into reality
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Is a fiction which does concern yourself with really issues
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The origin, the man, our future
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00:27:29,218 --> 00:27:33,060
In fact, I don't think... i can not think in any form of fiction which is more
313
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More concern with really issues, reality
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00:27:35,964 --> 00:27:38,528
Well, what do you have to say to that Professor Hawking?
315
00:27:51,479 --> 00:27:57,295
I don't believe in stories at flying Soucers and another unidentified flying objects
316
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:01,211
If time travel were possible
317
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we should have already been visited by people from the future
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00:28:07,102 --> 00:28:11,743
I think if we were been visited by people from another time or another planet
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00:28:12,211 --> 00:28:16,993
It would be much more obvious and probably very unpleasant
320
00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:24,695
I don't want to make contact with another civilization except at a safe distance
321
00:28:26,118 --> 00:28:31,726
It might be like north Americans Indians making contact with a white men
322
00:28:33,226 --> 00:28:36,213
I badly wish they had never sold Manhattan
323
00:28:39,271 --> 00:28:45,943
Carl, you are the world's leading expert in the search for extra terrestrial intelligence
324
00:28:46,205 --> 00:28:49,033
Now Profº hawking doesn't want to make contact with them,
325
00:28:50,037 --> 00:28:51,978
Why do you want to make contact with them?
326
00:28:52,479 --> 00:28:55,268
Well.. first of all I would say we have little choice in the matter
327
00:28:56,677 --> 00:29:03,228
We have already announced, rather i should say Magnus
328
00:29:03,673 --> 00:29:05,655
Your followers have already announced
329
00:29:06,675 --> 00:29:10,377
The fact that there is a low level technical civilization at this part of the galaxy
330
00:29:11,053 --> 00:29:14,176
Because television signals get out at the speed of light
331
00:29:14,913 --> 00:29:22,058
And since any other civilization who detects those signals is unlikely to be at or
332
00:29:22,540 --> 00:29:25,290
before our state of technological events
333
00:29:26,016 --> 00:29:28,743
since we just invented radio technology so to say
334
00:29:29,363 --> 00:29:32,442
They are much more likely to be in our technological future
335
00:29:33,047 --> 00:29:38,752
And the question is to whether their intentions are BEGNY or
336
00:29:39,425 --> 00:29:41,411
otherwise is of course adventuristic
337
00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:44,663
But we have nothing to say about the matter
338
00:29:45,382 --> 00:29:50,256
So therefore i think we might as well hope it's beny if they are out there
339
00:29:50,457 --> 00:29:53,346
From my point of view, the search for extra terrestrial life
340
00:29:53,753 --> 00:29:56,053
And in special the search for extra terrestrial intelligence
341
00:29:56,581 --> 00:30:02,346
is one of the key Philosophical, scientific, and human questions that have been posed
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00:30:02,346 --> 00:30:07,114
But we are at the very beginning of searching, surely it is important for us to know the answer
343
00:30:07,473 --> 00:30:09,722
One thing that interests me a great deal is the way
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00:30:09,722 --> 00:30:15,687
which public perception of beings from outer space have had changed over the years
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00:30:15,917 --> 00:30:18,651
They used to be the badies.. But Now..
346
00:30:18,965 --> 00:30:25,502
there’s is an optimistic feeling that any extra terrestrial life is if not beny
347
00:30:25,502 --> 00:30:29,783
is at least not as hostile and aggressive as the one we used to fear
348
00:30:30,032 --> 00:30:32,064
Is this the drifting of your writings as well Arthur?
349
00:30:32,315 --> 00:30:37,159
Yes, I'm an optimistic and I believe that any hostile civilization
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00:30:37,489 --> 00:30:42,198
will rapidly self destruct as we may see it on ourselves
351
00:30:42,584 --> 00:30:47,376
So if we do have contact physical contact with aliens i think it will be beny
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00:30:47,835 --> 00:30:49,275
My frivolous mind is much taken...
353
00:30:49,275 --> 00:30:53,939
If Intelligent being are reasonbly near why they have not visited us?
354
00:30:55,386 --> 00:30:58,097
Well, that is a very good question, let's try to run across to Arthur Clarke?
355
00:30:58,734 --> 00:31:00,781
There are literally dozens of answers to this
356
00:31:01,469 --> 00:31:07,907
that may have come in a remote past, they may be visiting us every ten thousands of years
357
00:31:07,907 --> 00:31:10,719
I mean the universe is a huge large place and even if there were fleets
358
00:31:11,134 --> 00:31:13,512
of survey ships they are all going on the cosmos
359
00:31:13,797 --> 00:31:19,313
we shouldn't expect visitors less than an ice age every thousand years or so
360
00:31:19,870 --> 00:31:24,562
They may know about us, and they may have put a quarantine in our planet
361
00:31:24,984 --> 00:31:26,503
For pretty good reasons
362
00:31:27,481 --> 00:31:30,563
They may have lost the interest in us, they may be so much higher
363
00:31:31,465 --> 00:31:34,950
that we must be just a JHHH an inconvenience if you like
364
00:31:35,633 --> 00:31:40,904
You expect it endlessly.. I think we should just wait and try to get more evidence
365
00:31:41,527 --> 00:31:44,981
Maybe there are spaces probes saying there is no intelligent life on earth
366
00:31:46,032 --> 00:31:49,296
They maybe have achieved our television programs and decide that
367
00:31:49,544 --> 00:31:50,369
that is the case
368
00:31:51,856 --> 00:31:56,247
May I attempt a different answer to Stephen's question ?
369
00:31:56,484 --> 00:31:57,326
Please do Carl Sagan
370
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:06,937
The first large scale commercial broadcasting on the earth was in the late 1940's
371
00:32:07,223 --> 00:32:11,292
So that was forty years ago.. So you must imagine
372
00:32:12,138 --> 00:32:17,720
A spherical wave expanding out from the earth at the velocity of light
373
00:32:18,386 --> 00:32:24,378
Which contain all the JURY of programs of late 1940's
374
00:32:25,013 --> 00:32:28,907
Since then, that expanding spherical wave containing
375
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,201
The news of a development civilization on earth has travel some forty light years
376
00:32:35,853 --> 00:32:39,074
Suppose that there are no civilizations closer than forty light years
377
00:32:39,823 --> 00:32:44,118
Perhaps they aren't here because they don't know we are about just yet
378
00:32:44,591 --> 00:32:47,099
But in time the message gets to them
379
00:32:47,661 --> 00:32:51,659
And perhaps they'll send a little expedition to look us over
380
00:32:51,896 --> 00:32:56,389
I liked when I read that when spaces probes went out
381
00:32:56,742 --> 00:33:02,775
First of all you put the figure of a man and a woman on the outside
382
00:33:03,225 --> 00:33:06,020
So any alien life would recognize what we look like
383
00:33:06,335 --> 00:33:10,306
And in the legend probe I think you put a LP of earth sounds
384
00:33:10,885 --> 00:33:15,835
with instructions and hand signals on how to work the LP
385
00:33:16,166 --> 00:33:22,606
How do you think anybody would have reacted if in fact, alien intelligence had heard this LP?
386
00:33:23,625 --> 00:33:25,947
My guess is that will be something like
387
00:33:26,874 --> 00:33:33,262
"Oh look, another artifact from some extremely primitive civilization, which one is this?"
388
00:33:34,276 --> 00:33:35,975
But then some degree of thanks..
389
00:33:36,271 --> 00:33:41,964
we were thoughtful enough to send a message into the far future which it could in no way benefit us
390
00:33:42,897 --> 00:33:47,504
Certainly a selfless act. And perhaps it will be recognize
391
00:33:47,771 --> 00:33:53,743
As a hopeful and optimistic gesture by an emerge civilization
392
00:33:54,270 --> 00:33:58,519
just setting foot into the great galactic wilderness
393
00:33:59,169 --> 00:34:00,386
Yes Arthur?
394
00:34:00,635 --> 00:34:02,397
I know what is gonna happen to your voyager Carl
395
00:34:02,895 --> 00:34:07,159
That will be overtaken one day by terrestrial spaceship and brought back to Smithsonian (NASA)
396
00:34:08,085 --> 00:34:14,849
It is certainly technologically possible, but i hope they let it go on its original mission
397
00:34:15,392 --> 00:34:20,048
Now, it very nearly 20 years ago since man landed on the moon
398
00:34:20,443 --> 00:34:24,687
Do you think that we've basically started trying to get men any further?
399
00:34:25,111 --> 00:34:31,102
Is there any chance of another Neil Armstrong will set foot on Mars in our lifetime?
400
00:34:31,791 --> 00:34:37,812
United States and Soviet Union have managed to BOOBLE TRAP the planet with about 60,000 nuclear weapons
401
00:34:38,078 --> 00:34:40,870
With a little help from Britain friends and China and Israel
402
00:34:42,434 --> 00:34:48,142
It's a tiny fraction of those weapons is enough to destroy the participating nations
403
00:34:48,618 --> 00:34:56,579
And certainly the global civilization and possibly the human species just maybe
404
00:34:57,062 --> 00:35:03,450
It is time for the United States and Soviet Union to demonstrate that they can undo
405
00:35:03,713 --> 00:35:04,899
This arsenal
406
00:35:05,354 --> 00:35:09,106
That they can demonstrate their ability to work together on high technology
407
00:35:09,731 --> 00:35:16,719
For peaceful hopeful purposes that carries us to a beny 21th century
408
00:35:17,398 --> 00:35:25,339
That's why I support the idea of joint US Soviet cooperation and the exploration of Mars
409
00:35:25,976 --> 00:35:32,869
Leading up to an International Men and by the way Women mission to the planet
410
00:35:33,620 --> 00:35:40,366
Americans and Soviets as representatives of the human species other nations i presume will also be involved
411
00:35:41,090 --> 00:35:48,963
Then a glorious, whatever will be few month period, in which Mars I have a global of it next to me
412
00:35:49,353 --> 00:35:56,849
In which Mars will be explored. There are hundreds, for example, hundreds of ancient river valleys on Mars
413
00:35:57,115 --> 00:36:03,775
Mars is today bondry. It was once much warmer much wetter, much denser atmosphere, much more earthlike
414
00:36:04,283 --> 00:36:05,999
What were does conditions like?
415
00:36:06,708 --> 00:36:12,712
Why did an earthlike planet get converted into this deep Ice Age condition?
416
00:36:13,033 --> 00:36:15,599
That Mars has today?
417
00:36:15,939 --> 00:36:21,879
Is there life there ? Could there once be life? Are there phossils forms?
418
00:36:22,271 --> 00:36:27,876
There are extraordinary enigmatic geological features on the planet. What is their nature?
419
00:36:28,445 --> 00:36:31,719
There a huge amount of exploration to do
420
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:39,099
And all of it, every step that I’ve described, could be before the television cameras over the world
421
00:36:39,809 --> 00:36:42,499
And we could all participate in such exploration
422
00:36:43,158 --> 00:36:47,802
Is another danger that the human bacterys that we take with us
423
00:36:48,376 --> 00:36:56,567
Will pollute and destroy something enourmsly precious out there simply because we are so inquisitive about it
424
00:36:56,905 --> 00:36:57,519
Arthur?
425
00:36:57,806 --> 00:37:02,693
Well, if you ask the question "Should the human beings go to other planets?"
426
00:37:03,083 --> 00:37:08,347
I think the answer to that is: We could had stayed the Europe and could explore American by robots
427
00:37:09,097 --> 00:37:13,330
It might have been, it would certainly save a lot of human lives, but of course we didn't we went there and lived
428
00:37:14,658 --> 00:37:21,277
In this new continent. Now again Mars like none of the planets of the solar system is anything like as beny as
429
00:37:21,277 --> 00:37:23,257
The United States and the other parts of this planet
430
00:37:23,694 --> 00:37:25,751
But one day people will argue to call them home
431
00:37:26,449 --> 00:37:29,426
There will me Martians one day and they will be arguing eventually
432
00:37:30,029 --> 00:37:33,258
And they will think as the earth poison as a horrible place for themselves to live
433
00:37:33,780 --> 00:37:37,656
Now as to whether will we pollute this environment: Yes there are some risks to it
434
00:37:38,125 --> 00:37:42,709
Of course colonization always involves a destruction of what was there first
435
00:37:43,073 --> 00:37:47,800
I'm quite sure in the next century, In fact already started there is a conference on the pollution of space
436
00:37:48,304 --> 00:37:53,508
In the United States in a very near future this is already a serious problem in the near earth space
437
00:37:54,147 --> 00:37:59,822
But you have to control you have to cut down forests on this earth to make new cities
438
00:38:00,174 --> 00:38:03,894
On the moon I'm afraid one day we may have to polish much of the moon with vacuum
439
00:38:04,346 --> 00:38:06,351
Vacuum on Mars, we may have to change the atmosphere
440
00:38:06,955 --> 00:38:10,252
But i do hope we'll leave most of the universe in a crystal condition
441
00:38:10,602 --> 00:38:12,879
But our heirs are gonna have to change ourselves in Mars, I mean we could evolve differently
442
00:38:14,810 --> 00:38:17,791
Mars will change us. In fact this is part of the progress
443
00:38:17,791 --> 00:38:21,668
By going into a new environment, by occupying new biological niches
444
00:38:21,951 --> 00:38:26,324
That's the way we progress and discover the universe and explore it..
445
00:38:27,043 --> 00:38:28,919
and perhaps fulfill our destiny
446
00:38:29,887 --> 00:38:34,734
Do you think that other planets might have the same kind of system which there will be a morality
447
00:38:35,038 --> 00:38:40,352
Which there would be people taking moral attitudes, which may not necessary be the same as ours of course ?
448
00:38:40,744 --> 00:38:46,915
All societies must have some moral structure, I mean otherwise we just can't have a society
449
00:38:47,251 --> 00:38:50,071
We must understand rules and the way to behave to our neighbors
450
00:38:50,602 --> 00:38:54,853
And even if the society consist of machines, there must be a machine land
451
00:38:55,135 --> 00:38:58,800
Which they can agree to react together
452
00:38:59,149 --> 00:39:02,415
So morality in some way is essential to the universe
453
00:39:02,975 --> 00:39:06,590
Now, Professor Hawking in the very last paragraph of your book
454
00:39:06,993 --> 00:39:11,568
You said that if we discover a compete theory of the universe
455
00:39:12,191 --> 00:39:20,410
Then it should be in time understandable and BROUGHT principle to everyone and not just to scientists
456
00:39:20,911 --> 00:39:28,518
And when that happens, all of us will be able to start discussing "WHY" rather than the "HOW" and I quote:
457
00:39:29,007 --> 00:39:37,299
"If we find the answer to that, it should be the ultimate trying for human reason for then we will know the mind of god"
458
00:39:37,972 --> 00:39:42,963
Do you think that God can intervene in the universe as he wants ?
459
00:39:43,475 --> 00:39:46,101
Or is god too bound by the laws of science?
460
00:39:50,839 --> 00:39:55,618
The question whether god is bound by the laws of Science is a bit like the question
461
00:39:56,277 --> 00:40:01,102
Can God make a stone that is so heavy that he can not lift it?
462
00:40:02,473 --> 00:40:11,249
I don't think that is very useful to speculate on what god might, or might not be able to do
463
00:40:12,876 --> 00:40:18,390
Rather, we should examine what he actually does with the universe we live in
464
00:40:21,223 --> 00:40:26,585
All of our observations suggests that he operates accordingly to well defined laws
465
00:40:28,817 --> 00:40:31,474
These laws may have been ordained by god
466
00:40:31,881 --> 00:40:35,689
But it seems that he does not intervene in the universe to break the laws
467
00:40:36,253 --> 00:40:39,535
At least not once when he set a universe going
468
00:40:43,286 --> 00:40:50,629
However until recently, it was thought that the laws would necessarily breakdown at the beginning of the universe
469
00:40:53,928 --> 00:40:59,596
That would had meant, that God would have had a complete freedom to choose how the universe began
470
00:41:02,972 --> 00:41:10,673
In the last few years, however we have realized that the laws of science may hold at the beginning of time
471
00:41:12,149 --> 00:41:14,601
In that case would have had no freedom
472
00:41:15,971 --> 00:41:19,877
The way the universe began would be determined by the laws of science
473
00:41:20,969 --> 00:41:22,400
Well, thank you very much.
474
00:41:22,690 --> 00:41:28,104
Carl Sagan, in your introduction to the book you commented on this
475
00:41:28,334 --> 00:41:33,103
You said this is also a book about God or perhaps about the absence of God
476
00:41:33,438 --> 00:41:36,781
Because Hawking left nothing for the creator to do
477
00:41:37,530 --> 00:41:40,553
Now, God of course means many things to many people.
478
00:41:40,929 --> 00:41:46,148
What sort of God basically are we talking about when we talk about reading the mind of God?
479
00:41:47,953 --> 00:41:50,154
Well... I think that's an excellent question
480
00:41:50,654 --> 00:41:55,208
And I'd be the most interested to hear Stephen Hawking Answer
481
00:41:55,614 --> 00:42:00,639
But just to try to illuminate the range of possibilities consider two alternatives
482
00:42:01,310 --> 00:42:04,970
One is the notion popular in the West
483
00:42:05,874 --> 00:42:13,780
that God is sort of outsized, elderly white male with a long white beard seating in a throne in the sky
484
00:42:14,123 --> 00:42:16,607
And telling the fault of every being
485
00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:24,836
Contrast that with the idea of God in the mind of, let's say, Spinoza or Einstein
486
00:42:25,436 --> 00:42:30,595
Which was at least very closely with the sum of the total laws of the universe
487
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:37,551
Now it would be madness to deny that there are well defined physical laws in the universe
488
00:42:38,153 --> 00:42:42,777
And if is that what you mean by god there is no question that God exists
489
00:42:43,147 --> 00:42:50,437
But it's a very remote God what French called "roíz franiant", a do nothing King
490
00:42:51,330 --> 00:42:55,469
On the other hand the former model of the one who intervenes daily
491
00:42:56,003 --> 00:43:01,094
For that there seems to be as Dr. Hawking said "No evidence"
492
00:43:01,415 --> 00:43:06,946
I think that's wise my own personal feeling to be a little humble
493
00:43:07,442 --> 00:43:15,214
On such matters, we must recognize that we are dealing with, by definition
494
00:43:15,214 --> 00:43:19,684
"The most difficult things to know the furtherest from the human experience"
495
00:43:20,137 --> 00:43:26,995
And perhaps we will be able to penetrate a little way into these mysteries
496
00:43:27,433 --> 00:43:30,229
I think Prof Hawking would like to come in here
497
00:43:32,614 --> 00:43:35,615
I use God in the same sense that Einstein did
498
00:43:36,428 --> 00:43:42,270
It is our will the real reason why the is universe is as it is and why the universe exists at all
499
00:43:45,089 --> 00:43:53,180
Can i ask Arthur Clarke what he meant when you said in a interview
500
00:43:53,558 --> 00:43:56,836
I don't believe in God but I’m extremely interested in it
501
00:43:57,275 --> 00:43:59,714
Well i guess I haven't placed my bet yet
502
00:44:00,267 --> 00:44:04,568
You know when Stephen remarks and Carl remarks Reminds me that this was said
503
00:44:05,213 --> 00:44:13,274
200 years ago when Napoleon, I think he was talking with Laplace who publishes theories of the universe
504
00:44:13,714 --> 00:44:20,169
An Napoleon said "God isn't in it?" and Laplace replied "Sr. I have no need for that hypothesis"
505
00:44:21,164 --> 00:44:28,236
Do you think that the church is In fact beginning to recognize that it may have to lose its priority
506
00:44:28,711 --> 00:44:36,121
its anonnance as it sounds arbitrary of these matters and that Science will be allow to come in as an equal partner
507
00:44:36,715 --> 00:44:41,266
Well, the church, the Roman Catholic Church is becoming very much more neighboor
508
00:44:41,649 --> 00:44:47,545
I had a pleasure of give a talking in the Vatican myself when the Academy of Sciences ask me to
509
00:44:47,984 --> 00:44:52,491
and I met the Pope and of course I quoted Galileo and so things are moving
510
00:44:53,305 --> 00:44:57,795
In fact are they moving Backwards as well as Forwards Carl Sagan ?
511
00:44:58,103 --> 00:45:04,714
Because I understand that in the earliest days of civilization then the priests were in fact what we call the scientists
512
00:45:05,055 --> 00:45:08,918
The ones who could start astronomy and who could predict eclipses and things
513
00:45:09,224 --> 00:45:15,940
You see the scientists coming back into to a second position like this or Am i overstating it?
514
00:45:17,752 --> 00:45:20,880
Well, I hope you are overstating it
515
00:45:22,237 --> 00:45:27,941
I think the essence of the scientific method is the willingness to admit you are wrong
516
00:45:28,253 --> 00:45:35,097
The willingness to abandon ideas that don't work and the essence of religion is not to change anything
517
00:45:35,689 --> 00:45:39,812
Suppose your truth are handed down by some revered figure
518
00:45:40,413 --> 00:45:45,584
And no one is suppose to make any progress beyond that because all the truth was thought to be in hand
519
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,066
And may i talk about setting the agenda for the future?
520
00:45:49,069 --> 00:46:01,127
My sense is that scientific way of thinking is questioning some delicate mix of creative encouragement of new ideas
521
00:46:01,675 --> 00:46:05,365
In the most rigorous and skeptical Scrutiny of new and old ideas
522
00:46:05,851 --> 00:46:12,224
I think that is the path to the future not just for science but for all human institutions
523
00:46:12,726 --> 00:46:16,319
We have to be willing to challenge because we are in desperate need of change
524
00:46:16,681 --> 00:46:18,377
I have the same question to you Arthur Clarke
525
00:46:18,902 --> 00:46:23,523
Politics or Priests are setting the agenda or scientists ?
526
00:46:23,978 --> 00:46:27,188
I'm very fan of Pandit Nehru on this, he once said that
527
00:46:27,538 --> 00:46:34,350
Politics and Religious are obsolete. The time has come for science and spirituality!
528
00:46:35,365 --> 00:46:39,349
I hear from the clicking that Prof. hawking would like to come in
529
00:46:42,568 --> 00:46:46,630
I don't think that physics tells us how to behave to our neighbors
530
00:46:49,211 --> 00:46:53,348
The physics may determinate who our neighbors are and what planets they live in
531
00:46:53,928 --> 00:46:56,408
But you say that science should be skeptical and politics
532
00:46:56,651 --> 00:47:00,923
Don't you think that we should be skeptical about science too? I mean, can we trust you guys?
533
00:47:02,463 --> 00:47:10,315
I think you should certainly be skeptical, but my view is that there are no community of people on the planet
534
00:47:10,751 --> 00:47:15,580
More skeptical than scientists. It's our stocking trade, is the life blood of our subject
535
00:47:17,065 --> 00:47:21,613
Science is a self correct subject, not like Politics!
536
00:47:23,248 --> 00:47:25,173
Well politics is corrected by other forces
537
00:47:26,488 --> 00:47:35,203
Can I ask one question of you all?, is the question of creativity which fascinates me
538
00:47:35,551 --> 00:47:41,944
Here we have three Enourmsly creative people. Enourmsly creative inthelects
539
00:47:42,455 --> 00:47:45,225
How in fact does it operate?
540
00:47:45,607 --> 00:47:51,609
Do you, Arthur Clarke, do you should find a problem that you like to work on
541
00:47:52,002 --> 00:47:53,519
And then look for a solution to it ?
542
00:47:54,077 --> 00:47:59,390
I'm not sure what might make the new creation, and I don't think i really want to know
543
00:47:59,641 --> 00:48:03,952
And I’m afraid to find, if I discover, that i will not act naturally
544
00:48:04,256 --> 00:48:06,905
Just found distract
545
00:48:07,437 --> 00:48:09,595
Or a golf man when de think about his swing? Yes..
546
00:48:10,013 --> 00:48:10,893
So you don't think about that
547
00:48:11,389 --> 00:48:14,262
Carl Sagan, there is a seriou sight to this?
548
00:48:14,647 --> 00:48:18,594
Well..this issue Where creativity comes from...
549
00:48:19,607 --> 00:48:21,269
I share your fascination with it
550
00:48:22,204 --> 00:48:24,498
I don't think we understand very much about it
551
00:48:25,441 --> 00:48:31,704
My practice is to respect my unconscious mind
552
00:48:32,002 --> 00:48:36,718
Who often is much wiser than the conscious part of me
553
00:48:37,356 --> 00:48:39,450
And pay attention to what is says
554
00:48:40,016 --> 00:48:47,840
In fact, I think this is connected to that delicate attention at the heart of Scientific Method i talked about before
555
00:48:48,606 --> 00:48:52,608
The unconscious mind proposes a range of possibilities
556
00:48:52,985 --> 00:49:00,404
And the conscious mind disposes and it compares those ideas with the real world
557
00:49:00,763 --> 00:49:04,751
Checks for internal inconsistencies and so on
558
00:49:05,296 --> 00:49:13,294
I think the creative process is a partnership between a conscious and unconscious parts of our minds
559
00:49:13,567 --> 00:49:15,470
At least that is how it seems to me
560
00:49:17,317 --> 00:49:18,583
I'd like to leave the last word on creativity In fact with Prof Hawking
561
00:49:26,865 --> 00:49:29,254
Just whenever you are ready
562
00:49:33,706 --> 00:49:39,689
I'm just curious I want to find out how the things works I follow my nose
563
00:49:40,628 --> 00:49:44,973
One thing leads to another and i don't know what I will find next
564
00:49:46,581 --> 00:49:52,720
Now i think i would like to retreat a bit into poetry myself because it's nearly a 150 years ago
565
00:49:52,973 --> 00:49:55,688
Since Mathew Arnold wrote his explandid poem "The Future"
566
00:49:56,343 --> 00:50:00,937
What was before us we know not and we know not what will succed
567
00:50:01,619 --> 00:50:06,677
But perhaps if Prof Hawking magnificent vision and curiosity is realized
568
00:50:07,021 --> 00:50:12,111
we will have proved Mathew Arnold is wrong before the 150 years are up
569
00:50:12,628 --> 00:50:17,504
Gentlemen to all of you, to Prof Stephen Hawking, to Dr. Arthur C. Clarke
570
00:50:18,084 --> 00:50:22,457
To you Carl Sagan in America, a enourmous thanks to all three of you
571
00:50:22,842 --> 00:50:25,035
And to all of you watching Good Night